01-02-20
0700 Morning
routine, worked on notes, and then
left for the meeting with Supt.
FRASER & Insp. LATHEM.
The meeting started pretty much on
time (0907) with all present as
expected, including Supt. Lee
FRASER, Insp. Andy LATHEM, S/Sgt.
Vic GORMAN & Neil FRASER, and Cpl.
Peter PURCHASE. It started out
on the footing that the file would
be finished as of 01-02-28, however
I quickly changed this agenda by
showing them John GARSTANG’s email
for the extension. This was
discussed for some time, as to what
would be done and why, and I was
told that a decision would be made
if I was to stay or be replaced.
John GARSTANG called me on my cell
phone part way through the meeting
regarding the email from yesterday.
He asked that it not be taken as
written in stone and is not to be
acted upon directly, however, he did
say that the memo had been written
and was being forwarded for signing.
He felt that Vic GERDEN would sign
it and the period would be extended.
A lengthy discussion was undertaken
regarding possible non-accident
indicators, and I showed them the
email from Jim BROWN, the short
paragraph about the interference.
This created further lengthy
discussion, particularly over how we
would handle it. There was
opinion that BROWN’s credibility had
been compromised. There was
also discussion over whether or not
I had originally compromised his
credibility a year ago by sending
off the email. Then there was
discussion over how to go about the
matter. I presented the email
that I propose sending to Dr. BROWN,
however, it was not acceptable.
Lee FRASER suggested a face to face
with BROWN & LATHEM to go over the
AES and then to breach this
question, with an immediate
follow-up visit to Vic GERDEN to
inform him of the actions.
However, after much discussion, it
was finally agreed that I would send
off the following message. I
ensured that this message was
authorized by asking at least three
times, each time Insp. LATHEM
agreed. I was to simply send:
‘Please clarify your last paragraph
of your message of 01-02-13.’
Before arriving at this decision,
considerable discussion was
undertaken over the AES process, and
the findings on the beads.
Reaction was generally positive, and
the feeling was that we really
should know what is going on
regarding the message.
Lee FRASER asked me a number of
questions regarding possible
‘indicators’ of a criminal nature on
the aircraft, and I elaborated on
the four distinct locations of
molten metal, and the high heat
damage to the overhead ceiling tile
at the forward doors. This
generated much discussion again.
At one point, Lee asked me directly
why I thought the TSB wanted this
matter to be a non-criminal matter,
and I suggested that the AD’s would
be of less value if this matter were
an accident versus a criminal nature
(safety versus security). This
became an important point, to be
raised later. We also
mentioned possible locations and how
a device could have been planted.
I told him of my experience in
Zurich when the SR Technics member
had opened the forward drop ceiling
hatch and looked up in. I
explained its location and size, and
Lee seemed to take heed of it,
asking if LATHEM knew about it.
I told him that it was in my trip
notes, which are on E&R.
A trip around the table was made to
ensure that there were no other
concerns. And then the meeting
centred in on my notes.
Generally, Lee FRASER did most of
the talking. LATHEM advised
that he had sent my material off to
Lee, who had given it to Vic GORMAN
to read, and he had arranged for
eleven members up there to go
through my notes, one hundred pages
each. And it is an
understatement to say that they had
concerns.
Lee pointed out the matter of the
explosive wires, indicating that I
had alluded to a conspiracy in which
they had been covered up. We
went over that, with me advising
that GARSTANG had told me to keep
the matter quiet. Several
points were raised, and because I
did not have the notes in front of
me, I could not balance the
argument. It was made to seem
that I was biased and alluding to a
conspiracy. The matter of the
accident being non-criminal was
raised, and again why I had the idea
of a conspiracy or a cover-up.
(Later, I checked this note file in
a word-search for “conspi” in trying
to find “conspire” or “conspiracy”,
and it only shows in this paragraph.
The word ‘cover’ as in ‘cover-up’
shows hundreds of time, but never as
cover-up, etc.) But it was
stated that I allege in my notes or
felt that there was a conspiracy to
hide something or cover things up.
My problem is that things have not
been fully examined, not that they
have been covered up. I don’t
believe I have given a conspiracy
theory, except possibly regarding
the FAA testing of the materials on
the aircraft years ago. Lee
asked about this, asking what we
should have done about it. I
again suggested the FBI.
LATHEM told us that GERDEN was
looking into it, and that he has a
committee set up on the matter.
Generally, they all felt that I had
stuck my foot in it clear to my neck
and that I would have to answer to
what I had written if I ever take a
witness stand, and that my
credibility is totally shot because
of the details that I have included
in my notes. Their problem is
how will the press use it when they
obtain disclosure and take bits and
pieces out of context.
Lee questioned why I had not put my
notes into E&R on a routine basis,
and I explained that it was because
of my floor sources, that LATHEM had
agreed to it during one of the
earliest meetings. Another
reason is that E&R does not accept
tables, which I use frequently.
He commented that had these notes
been submitted routinely every week,
they could have been read and the
questionable parts addressed.
I asked if he meant editing my
notes, and he said no, but to answer
the questions raised in those notes
and address them. It seems we
kept coming back to the explosive
wires and the conspiracy, something
that we never really looked directly
at because no one could find the
material in the stack of over 1000
pages. The following is the
material written for that matter, as
taken directly from my notes, and I
feel that it is sufficiently
balanced on my part, providing
adequate degree of explanation.
00-10-07
John GARSTANG mentioned to me that
the explosive detonation wires in
room 114 are there but no one beyond
a few people knows they are there.
Neither Boeing nor Swissair know of
their existence. I had noticed
them last week when I took out the
seat covers and seat cushions, and
he advised that they had been found
on the beach in the area of the
crash, but that it is doubtful that
they were involved in the crash.
He said that our members had
suspected a local of illegal fishing
by using explosives. However,
today he advised that neither Boeing
nor Swissair have any knowledge that
they were found in the crash area.
He said that Vic GERDEN had put a
tight seal on knowledge of them,
thus almost no one knows of their
existence. He advised that he
would soon be contacting GERDEN to
remind him that a report has to go
in advising both companies of the
existence of the wires. Later
in the afternoon, the four wire
exhibits were photographed on roll
#571 with a colour scale, 3-D scale,
and tag as Exh #1-11273, a white
wire, Exh #1-162 & Exh #1-384,
coloured wires with tags attached,
similar to wires seen at explosives
sites, and Exh #1-634, a white wire
with a blue plastic attachment that
was tagged as a used fuse. The
items were left in room #114.
It is obvious that Lee never read
this section of the notes, and
indeed he pointed out that the
section that he had read was very
dull and boring. I pointed out
to Lee that when you take 100 pages
out of context, you would not get an
accurate feel for the facts.
The members reading it know nothing
of the environment or the
participants involved. This
wasn’t accepted, and generally he
said that he was very upset and
disappointed with me. The tone
of the meeting most certainly was
that I was at fault, that I had done
something terribly wrong, that my
credibility for this file had been
shot, and Lee stated that I would
not likely be involved in any
further serious files. In
other words, I was in trouble, and
they wanted to distance themselves
from me as far as they could.
He asked if I would go through my
notes and add clarifications to
various areas that are particularly
a problem. I clarified that he
did not want the material edited,
that he wanted it clarified with
additions to explain the follow-up
details relating to the particular
matter. LATHEM then jumped
into the conversation with a piece
of paper, saying that he wanted the
material edited out. I
questioned that, as did Lee FRASER.
LATHEM said that he wanted an edited
version of the notes, with the
personal material edited out.
He then produced a piece of paper
that read:
I, Sgt. T.C.JUBY, have
reviewed all notes submitted by
myself for filing as they relate to
Operation Homage. These notes
reflect my personal theories and
speculations. They are not
founded in fact nor is there any
evidence to support them.
Subsequently, by my own free will
and volition without duress, I
freely admit that my personal
beliefs do not reflect the factual
information found within the area of
my responsibility – that being the
identification, photographing,
physical matching and physical
examination of evidence.
Further, I agree to review my notes
and to edit the non-factual
information, knowing full well that
the original notes will be retained
on file. I will also take
training to remedy this issue to
ensure it is not repeated in the
future.
T.C.
JUBY, Sgt.
Witness LATHEM
20/FEB/2001
I
added in the line: In other
words, a second set of notes minus
the personal material.
Several things struck me as
important. I have not had a
chance to review the notes, and they
knew it. I had told LEE when
questioned about the explosive wires
that I didn’t remember what I had
written, that there was two &
one/half year’s worth of daily notes
involved. Besides that, I had
submitted the notes clearly stating
that they were not complete and
required additions, the term being
80% finished. These additions
include the trip notes, and several
other areas including insulation
blanket numbers and AES wire
numbers, much of which has been
marked for additions. These
would be done of course with a note
to indicate when and how they were
done. However, I was ordered
in December to submit them
regardless of this fact, punishable
by suspension without pay by the CO
of ‘H’ Div. And I certainly
have not had a chance since
submitting them to review them or
make the required additions.
As for the rest of the lines in
LATHEM’s paper, I was sitting in a
room with two senior officers and
two senior NCOs (one of which is in
an Acting Inspector’s position) for
nearly two hours all telling me that
I had done a terrible deed and
tearing apart any response that I
gave. Neil FRASER took notes,
something that I will be asking Lee
for a copy of. We spent so
much time dwelling on the editing
methods that I really forgot what
was in the previous lines. And
it kept occurring to me that they
are asking me to perform an illegal
act. I have been asked to
change my notes by deleting my
personal observations and feelings
that were written at the time to
describe the event and the
atmosphere. I knew that Karl
CHRISTIANSEN had undergone something
similar, and that he had a ruling
from a Force source to the effect
that notes are to reflect what you
see, hear, do, feel, etc at that
particular moment as a refresher to
your memory at a later date.
But I knew that if I didn’t sign,
another paper was likely to surface
ordering me to do so by punishment
of suspension or some other similar
thing. As for refusing
outright, or getting up and leaving
the meeting, I had just recently
received a 1004 for that very
infraction. So I felt I had no
option. But I kept asking if
this was correct procedure, if it
was legal, to which I was told ‘yes’
by Insp. LATHEM. However, I
did notice that Lee FRASER didn’t
say anything, and indeed gave what I
thought was a questioning look
towards LATHEM about the matter,
particularly when the idea of
editing out the material was first
forcibly put forward by LATHEM.
I really don’t think that Lee knew
that this was coming, and he never
said anything more about it after
that. At one point, I said
that I was of the understanding that
I could include all of this
questioned material in my notes, as
it was to include anything that
reflected upon the matter at hand,
including the atmosphere during
which the matter occurred.
Insp. LATHEM made the comment ‘Oh
yeh, I’ve heard that one before’.
On signing, I added the one line to
clarify that he indeed wanted
material removed to create a second
set of notes. Insp. LATHEM
then provided a photocopy after
saying that he hoped to be able to
get the edited version through
‘Access to Information Section’ and
later disclosure if it went that
far. I now have to check to
see if I have been asked to do an
illegal act, something that I am
very suspicious of.
That pretty much ended the session,
and we then went on to the
assessment, Lee and Neil leaving the
room. Peter had left prior to
getting into the discussion over the
notes. Insp. LATHEM provided a
form 1004 for the notes, again
indicating the misdeed that I had
performed regarding what I have
included in those notes, and an
interim assessment for the period
since GORMAN left. Then the
assessment by GORMAN was read to me,
and I was asked to sign each as I
received the forms. Discussion
was nil, and the forms were prepared
beforehand. I now have to
supply my comments. On
completion of that, I asked about
the 66-lieu days off and was told
that there was nothing that could be
done about it. Neither felt
that they could do anything, as they
had not known about it while it was
being incurred. The comment
was made that Officers don’t get
overtime either. I then asked
about the notes that are in GORMAN’s
E&R notes regarding discipline with
respect to me, and he said that he
was not prepared to do anything
about them, that they are there and
that he will not remove them.
On returning to the hangar, the
following email was sent out to Dr.
BROWN, with a copy then going to
LATHEM.
From:
"Tom Juby"
<tom.juby@ns.sympatico.ca>
To:
"Jim BROWN" <jrbrown@NRCan.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: Email of 01-FEB-14
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:16:13
-0400
Jim
Please clarify your last paragraph
of your message of 01-02-13.
Thanks.
Tom
A read receipt was requested, and a
copy of it was sent to Insp. LATHEM
as follows:
From:
Tom Juby
PRIVATE
To:
Andy Lathem
Date:
2/20/01 2:36PM
Subject:
Message to Dr. BROWN
As requested, the
following message was forwarded to
Dr. JIM BROWN this afternoon at
14:16 hrs.
Jim
Please clarify your last paragraph
of your message of 01 FEB
13.
Thanks.
Tom
A
read receipt was automatically
requested, so I will know when he
receives it.
Checked the email later because I
worked late tonight on notes, and
the following came in as a reply
from Dr. BROWN, with an automatic
read reply request, and my original
message at the bottom as normal.
From:
"Brown, Jim" <jrbrown@NRCan.gc.ca>
To:
"'tom.juby@ns.sympatico.ca'"
<tom.juby@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Email of 01-FEB-14
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:55:28
-0500
Hi
Tom
1st:
I've been misled repeatedly by TSBC
about Swissair Fl111 with respect to
onboard emergency flares (number,
types, locations). Only when
confronted with info from other
sources was their presence finally
acknowledged and then only the
existence of flares under doors in
emergency shute/raft compartments
(Other sources indicate airliners
also carry flares accessible by the
flight and cabin crew; TSBC says
no). I'd like to believe them, but
experience makes me a skeptic.
2nd:
My draft report has been heavily
criticized because of comments on
anomalous levels of magnesium in arc
melt exhibits and possible reasons
(my opinions). Some comments were
justified, and I've revised them.
However, mention of the element Mg,
presence of any pyrotechnic on-board
sources and even the possibility
that an enriched environment of
magnesium existed in the vicinity of
the wiring at the time of electrical
arcing has come under considerable
criticism. I have thus added a
disclaimer that views and opinions
expressed are those of the author
and do not necessarily state or
reflect those of the TSBC.
regards
Jim
I suggest that this should be
classed as most important material.
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